Profound to diseased? Or just a bad day?

In Chapter 12, A Frivolous Answer, on page 286, Augustine says, "See, I answer the man who says, 'What did God do before he made heaven and earth?' I do not give the answer that someone is said to have given, evading by a joke the forces of the objection: 'He was preparing hell,' he said, 'for those prying into such deep subjects.' It is one thing to see the objection; it is another to make a joke of it. I do not see the answer in this way. I would rather respond, 'I do not know,' concerning what I do not know rather than say something for which the man inquiring about such profound matters is laughed at, while the one giving the false answer in praised."
But, at the end of Book 11, in Chapter 30, God Alone is Eternal, page 302, he says, "I will not endure the questions of such men, who by a disease that is their punishment, thirst for more knowledge than they can hold, and say, 'What did God do before he made heaven and earth?'..."

How did Saint Augustine go from saying that the man who asked this question was asking about "such profound matters" to saying he was diseased and thirsted "for more knowledge than they can hold”?

Did he decide that the man who asked these questions really was bad? Or was Saint Augustine just having a really bad day?

Problems with St. Augustine's definition of the Past

On page 293, Book 11, Chapter 20: Three Kinds of Time, Saint Augustine says that what is in the past, is only what is in memory, but there are problems with this theory.

Let's say that, somewhere deep in a forest, there is a tree. Now a wind blows and knocks down the tree. No one ever saw the tree fall, so did it really happen since it is not in anyone's memory? You could say that someone saw the tree before and after it fell, and then say that tree had fallen, but what if no one had even known the tree existed? Would tree's life really be in the past, because according to Saint Augustine's theory, what is in the past, is only what is in memory.

Is there a problem with my logic?

~Hannah

House of grass. Men like grass.

In book 9, chapter 7 Saints Gervase and Protase, page 216, it says "For long had I sighed after you, and at length I breathed in you, as far a breath my enter this house of grass."

The footnote after "house of grass" led me to Cf. Isa. 40:6, which says, " A voice says, 'Cry out.' And I said, 'What shall I cry?' All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field."

I am confused about the relationship between "men like grass" and a "house of grass."

Corn, wine, and oil, Oh my!

On page 212, Book 9, Chapter 4, St. Augustine is talking about vanity. Then, at the end of the chapter, he says, "For in your eternal simplicity I would possess other 'corn, and wine, and oil.'"

The footnote at the end of this quote directed me to Psalms 4:8, which is, "I will both lay me down in peace, and sleep: for thou, LORD, only makest me dwell in safety."

I am rather confused. How does Psalms 4:8 realte to "corn, and wine, and oil?"

~Hannah

An Open Heart

St. Augustine has an open heart when he is studying scripture and philosophical writings. He is looking for answers and is open to the possibility of God. My friend's father is also very well read in scriptures, philosophy, religion -- but he is an atheist. He reads with a closed heart and because of this he is unable to believe in God. St. Augustine studies and uses his mind (and heart) to become closer to God rather than using his intellect to shut himself off from God.

~Hannah

Is God a Spoil Sport?

In Book 8 St. Augustine is attempting to decide whether to become a Christian. He wants to be a Christian but cannot find it in himself to give up his wordly pleasures. Is God being a spoil sport by making us give up our worldly pleasures to follow Jesus?

I don't think He is. One of St. Augustine's biggest problems is being chaste. God knows that St. Augustine will be happier when he gives up pre-marital sex. He is not trying to spoil St. Augustine's fun, but rather to protect him and give him a  better life. St. Augustine still doesn't understand that having a physical relationship with a woman without the long term committment of marriage is not going to bring him long term happiness. God knows this and in time St. Augustine will, too.

In response

I loved the video; it was funny! I also like the pear line :)

In response to "In answer to Hannah," I agree that our ideas and St. Augustine's are almost identical, but St. Augustine says that to create an evil, there must be good to start with, while we say that to do an evil deed, the evil-doer must have either wanted a good, or was good by not killing his fellow evil-doers. They are not identical, but very similar.

Also, in "Good beings, Corruptible beings," I can not find any problem in your logic.

~Hannah

A Little Humor

My favorite line: "They call him DelMonte 'cause he's gotta have the pear."

Good Beings, Corruptible Beings

I think Hannah brings up an important chapter below when she discusses Augustine's view that "every being is good." This chapter definitely brings up questions that we have been discussing, such as: "what is evil?," "did God create it?," "can evil exist in the absence of all good?"

Morgan, in her comment, suggests that Hannah is interpreting St. Augustine's conclusion about good and evil as different from our own. Hannah says: "We finally came to the conclusion that you can't have an evil without a good, while here, Augustine says you cannot be evil, unless there was some good to turn into evil." Since Hannah uses the words "while here" it does seem that she is suggesting Augustine would disagree with our own conclusion, but then her statement of what Augustine believes doesn't seem to me to be that different from our own. I'd be curious to hear more from Hannah about how she thinks Augustine's conclusion contradicts the idea that "you can't have evil without a good." It seems to me that what Augustine is saying is that everything that exists (in other words, everything that is a "being") must be good, because it is either the supreme good (God) and thus incorruptible, or it is something corruptible. If it is corruptible, then that means it is good, for you can't corrupt something that is completely evil, only something that is good (after all, that's what corruption means: to make what is good less so). According to this argument, then, every being is good. If so, then to the extent that anything exists, there would be some good. If what exists were at any point entirely corrupted, then there would be nothing good left, and since "every being is good" then that means there would be nothing left at all. In other words, you can't have evil if there is nothing good, simply because if there is nothing good left, then there would be nothing at all.

That's how I understand Augustine's argument. Do you have a different understanding of it? Whether you do or you don't, do you think it is a logical argument? Or do you think it is flawed in some way?

In answer to Hannah

Hannah said, "We finally came to the conclusion that you can't have an evil without a good, while here, Augustine says you cannot be evil, unless there was some good to turn into evil."

We came to the conclusion in our previous discussion that evil was a lack of good, therefore good had to be there to start with. So I believe that contrary to what Hannah stated above (insinuating that we differed from St. Augustine's position), our conclusion does in fact agree with St. Augustine's.  We both believe that everything starts out as good but has the choice to take away that good, becoming evil.

A Troubled Augustine

In the beginning of Book 7, St. Augustine seems greatly troubled. He is constantly wondering and pondering over God's incorruptibility and man's corruptibility. In Chapter 12, St. Augustine finally comes to the conclusion that "Every Being is Good." (Hence the title of the chapter)

"It was manifest to me that beings that suffer corruption are nevertheless good. If they were supremely good, they could not be corrupted. If they were supremely good, they would be incorruptible, and if they were not good at all, there would not be anything in them to be corrupted. Corruption damages a thing, and it would not suffer damage unless its good were diminished" (Book 7: Problems of Thought and Belief, Chapter 12: Every Being is Good, pg. 172)

This excerpt from the book reminds me of our conversation about how evil is the lack of good. We finally came to the conclusion that you can't have an evil without a good, while here, Augustine says you cannot be evil, unless there was some good to turn into evil.

~Hannah

St. Ambrose

St. Ambrose seemed to have a great impact on St. Augustine as well as on his mother. When St. Ambrose preached he answered many of the questions that Augustine had been asking himself. But, in fact, when Ambrose was not preaching, he became so deeply emerged in reading that Augustine did not wish to interrupt him. Ambrose was intensley focused. So a few of Augstine's questions went unanswered until a later sermon from St. Ambrose.

Therefore, St. Ambrose didn't have as much of an impact as he could have had if Augustine had not been afraid of disturbing his reading.

Alypius

Alypius is a good friend of Saint Augustine's. He too has sinned in the past, but realized his mistakes when "You [God] rescued him with a hand that was most strong and yet most merciful, and You taught him to put his trust in not himself but in you." (pg. 145, Chapter 8: Alypius and the Gladiators, Book 6: Years of Struggle.) Saint Augustine clearly admires his friend and together they under went many adventures which tested their faith.

~Hannah

Lost a friend

In Book 4 Saint Augustine tells us about a friend of his. He was a childhood friend who grew up with Augustine, became lost in the world with him, turned back to God with him, then dies of fever. Being well on his way back to God, this loss of friendship becomes a major set back to St. Augustine and he loses much of the ground he has regained, falling back into bad. St. Augustine uses that loss of a friend to show us how much we all need our friends, to help and support us through everything.

Like Augustine said, "My heart was made dark with sorrow, and whatever I looked upon was death."

However, God's love soon started to mend Augustine's sorry heart and ease the wound of loss of friendship.

~Morgan

Imperfect human beings

Fastus was not a perfect person; he was not extremely learned, nor was he a great spiritual leader, yet he was able to help Saint Augustine. Fastus could not answer all of Saint Augustine's questions, but he was able to to humbly tell him that he did not know the answer. Despite the fact that Saint Augustine and Fastus were both flawed, they could help each other become closer to God.

~Hannah

Yea!

Yea! We made our blog! Now we can use it after classes.